Curse

Numa Pompilius · Mar 07, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

@Taurucis: OK, but that doesn't sound like you've been particularly hard hit. Those builds will still be working, even without tweaking, although now other skills may be a better choice than continuing to bring, say, siphon speed.

@Wildi: Yeah, that's exactly what I meant with "generalized whining". Of course those spells were used, that's simply irrelevant, as they will continue to be used. What build got broken for you?

@Stockholm: All this whining is just because people are too lazy to design a new skillbar? Seriously?

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I'm capping in Cantha, with the lovely 2x damage bosses. With stuff like Elementalist or Ritualist bosses who can wipe out most of your party in a couple shots. Usually I'm sacrificing SRS for Pain Inverter, which means I can't bring save yourselves and I have to use Res signet instead. That would mean either Ursan has to go (which wouldn't be a good idea) or Pain Inverter has to go (Another bad idea) or Signet of Capture has to go (...)

Even if I'm not capping from bosses who do ridiculous amounts of damage, I always prefer a rez that can move the target to you (which is why I go /Mo for Rebirth if I can) because most of my GW'ing is spent with H/H, and my henchies aren't the best at running back to me when I rez them. I have saved myself many, many times from restarts by bringing SRS even when I could have used res sig.

You won't have to worry about rezzing people when they all have a plump +100 armor on them : ) But then again I don't see how you'd be able to keep that up with UB on.

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

It's not so much specific builds as the time it takes away from actual game play when you have to set up a new skill bar.

That *is* gameplay, and it's the most vital portion of Guild Wars.

Taurucis · Mar 07, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You won't have to worry about rezzing people when they all have a plump +100 armor on them : ) But then again I don't see how you'd be able to keep that up with UB on.

Yeah, that's the main problem. Usually if I do break Ursan at all, it's either because I'm charging up 10 energy for Pain Inverter, or my team has wiped and 'm retreating to rez.

Stockholm · Mar 07, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa [EMAIL="[email protected]"

[email protected][/EMAIL]: All this whining is just because people are too lazy to design a new skillbar? Seriously?

When you get home from work and want to relaxe and play a game you find out you have to spend half the time (before real life takes over again, yes some of us have such) messing around with skill bars insted of actually clearing that area you had set time aside for, Yes that pisses people of big time, I have limited time for actual game play (plenty of time for bitching on Guru, can be done during work) and what say's that next time I log on I don't have to redo it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That *is* gameplay, and it's the most vital portion of Guild Wars.

No that's not "gameplay" it seams like work, and I don't have to buy a video game to get more work.

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

When you get home from work and want to relaxe and play a game you find out you have to spend half the time (before real life takes over again, yes some of us have such) messing around with skill bars insted of actually clearing that area you had set time aside for, Yes that pisses people of big time, I have limited time for actual game play (plenty of time for bitching on Guru, can be done during work) and what say's that next time I log on I don't have to redo it again.

If a person isn't having fun building skillbars, they may be playing the wrong game.

The Way Out · Mar 07, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You won't have to worry about rezzing people when they all have a plump +100 armor on them : ) But then again I don't see how you'd be able to keep that up with UB on.

That *is* gameplay, and it's the most vital portion of Guild Wars.

I have been designing a monk/paragon build that utilizes spear chucking to gain adrenaline to spam +100 armor. So far, things are looking good. I am successfully able to keep it up... the only downside is I have yet to modify the build for anything other than Elite PvE.

Stockholm · Mar 07, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If a person isn't having fun building skillbars, they may be playing the wrong game.

Or perhaps the people that think building "new" skill bars all the time should be playing a sim game or something similar insted, IMO.
Sad to see the Dev's having waisted so much time on graphic content when half would have been enough aslong as you can mess with the skill bar.

Bryant Again · Mar 07, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

Or perhaps the people that think building "new" skill bars all the time should be playing a sim game or something similar insted, IMO.

Situation is twofold. For harder areas, you have to always keep the team build in mind. The areas are much more situational and much more dependant on your build make up, and it becomes vital to have a much more suitable team build for that area. In more general PvE this is less important, and a nerfed skill might still be able to suit the area. I also don't know of any updates that have required someone to rethink an entire skillbar.

mikeydj99 · Mar 07, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Its Official!!! Wounding Strike=Uber 1337 Hax

It was already over powered.

a/d in ha does about 110 and deep wound..

what is that? on a target with 600 hp

230 <--wtf h4x

payne · Mar 07, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

ward against melee increased recharge? don't like it....

hero AI on BHA yippee ^^

payne

Stockholm · Mar 07, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Situation is twofold. For harder areas, you have to always keep the team build in mind. The areas are much more situational and much more dependant on your build make up, and it becomes vital to have a much more suitable team build for that area. In more general PvE this is less important, and a nerfed skill might still be able to suit the area. I also don't know of any updates that have required someone to rethink an entire skillbar.

It's not only your own skill bar but that of heros aswell, and what did the Skill "balance" do to the monsters skills? Thats why it takes time, I have diffrent skill bars for diffrent areas (don't everyone?) depending on the monsters and their skills. To do it right takes time.

Cosmic Snowman · Mar 07, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

cool buffs to Air Magic skills.
Now just give Lightning Hammer..... target foe is dazed

MB+RI still looks useful, well for PvE anyway.

As for the rest , i don't see myself having to adjust skills bars too much, but thats just me.

c0c0c0 · Mar 07, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

These "/ragequit" and "OMG ANet hates us" posts flat make me giggle. Let me go out on a limb here and state that any rebalancing that doesn't completely break a class is good rebalancing. Seriously.

Every nerf is a buff to its counter so somebody gains from every change. And if a rebalancing means you have to change your favorite bar, what's wrong with that? Isn't that preferable to a situation where the "best" bars are set in stone and everyone becomes a button pushing monkey until they get too bored to play anymore? If if a skill becomes nerfed into oblivion (which I admit isn't brilliant design), that just means that other skills become (comparably) more viable and strategies ripple and adjust throughout the metagame. What was "crap" becomes "cool" and all is made new.

Rebalancing is just like the weather. Check the news, equip yourself appropriately, and carry on.

Jeez.

The Way Out · Mar 07, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Snowman

cool buffs to Air Magic skills.
Now just give Lightning Hammer..... target foe is dazed

MB+RI still looks useful, well for PvE anyway.

As for the rest , i don't see myself having to adjust skills bars too much, but thats just me.

You are a Ranger... and there hasn't been a significant nerf for you class since the stripping of Energizing Wind.

Ctb · Mar 07, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

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But Inde...you have to admit...
The rock hard turd comment was priceless.

Nobody ever appreciates my sage analogies

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So far no-one has offered any specifics on how their PvE build have been irreparably destroyed, as far as I can tell it is just generalized whining.

Watch Yourself! was an excellent skill in PvP for helping the less intellectually endowed heroes and henches from getting their stupid bums wiped out. Now it's completely useless in PvE (well, completely useless period, actually).

It's not that builds are "destroyed", it's that having to redo builds because of dumb side effects is annoying. PvP skill changes don't make things more interesting in PvE most of the time, they just have bizarre side effects that create tedium.

My prior post, which was deleted, stated something like this on the matter:

It's not that these broken skills that are created are necessarily game-ending changes, it's just that redoing the templates that used them isn't fun for PvE players because we're not readjusting tactics we're just trudging tediously through lists of skills to try and find a replacement.

In other words: when the skills change, PvP players' tactics do to and the PvPers can readjust based on the reactions of their opponents.

In PvE, when the skills change, the monsters still use the same tactics so we're not really readjusting for any sort of challenge, and it's just a waste of time for us.

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@Stockholm: All this whining is just because people are too lazy to design a new skillbar? Seriously?

Although you're going on ignore since you'd apparently just rather insult people, my response to you stands for others who might care to actually try and have a discussion.

I want to play the game, not read through 500 skill descriptions every couple weeks. The game isn't changing for me, so I'm facing the exact same thing out in Tyria or Cantha or Elona as I was yesterday, but now I need to dig through templates for a couple of my characters and all my heroes just because ANET felt that PvP was stagnating.

PvP gets to face new tactics from challengers. PvE gets to try and get itself back to the position it was before with the same challengers. Annoying waste of time. There's nothing I can do about it, but that doesn't mean I can't try and make enough noise for them to keep it in mind for other games they produce.

Aera Lure · Mar 07, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

All well and good. For GW2 though, Anet needs to balance and test skills better prior to their release, make sure the other 60% of skills that are never used actually see buffs, and then limit skill changes to those necessary, letting us play the game. The constant skill changes really get tiresome, imho.

Steboy93 · Mar 07, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Wow, some big changes here. I'm looking forward to logging on later and seeing how they change things

quickmonty · Mar 07, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

I really enjoy reading these threads after a skill update. You can tell the difference between those that can think and those that get builds off forums and PvXWiki.

Cosmic Snowman · Mar 07, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Way Out

You are a Ranger... and there hasn't been a significant nerf for you class since the stripping of Energizing Wind.

LOL

aswell as Ele , Monk , Rit , Mes..
You didn't think i only played a ranger did ya?

Still i suspect all these changes will be forgotten by next weekend and people can go back to ranting about how overpowered "that pve skill" is.

Numa Pompilius · Mar 07, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

Watch Yourself! was an excellent skill in PvP for helping the less intellectually endowed heroes and henches from getting their stupid bums wiped out. Now it's completely useless in PvE (well, completely useless period, actually).

Yeah, it's useless now as a skill. Still, the reason it was loved wasn't those 25 armor within earshot - I refuse to believe PvE warriors were really unable to find better use for their skillslots - but that it was a free shout with short duration for Paragons, giving them energy and triggering refrains. And, uh, although I don't play Paragon, it seems to me it still works that way.

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It's not that builds are "destroyed", it's that having to redo builds because of dumb side effects is annoying.

Really? I change my build pretty much every time I go out.

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redoing the templates that used them isn't fun for PvE players because we're not readjusting tactics we're just trudging tediously through lists of skills to try and find a replacement.

Please do not presume to speak for "PvE players". I am one, and I disagree with everything you say. You probably meant to say "farmers", which is a completely different matter; farmers like repeating the same thing in the same way over and over and over and over and over, and are obviously annoyed by any change as it upsets their routine. I don't, and I'm not.

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In other words: when the skills change, PvP players' tactics do to and the PvPers can readjust based on the reactions of their opponents.

In PvE, when the skills change, the monsters still use the same tactics so we're not really readjusting for any sort of challenge, and it's just a waste of time for us.

Sounds to me like it's more a glass-half-full vs glass-half-empty argument. Your build may or may not be as effective due to changes to a skill or two, and you see that as an annoyance, rather than an opportunity to check out what the skill update meant to the other skills. Oh well.

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Although you're going on ignore

.

I will try to survive, some how.

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I want to play the game, not read through 500 skill descriptions every couple weeks.

Basically you want the same mobs in the same positions doing the same things so they're easily killed by using the same skills in the same order as you've done a hundred times before. I name thee "farmer".

To me change isn't bad. A bad update is an update in which a profession is broken, or in which diversity is destroyed. The update which killed mesmer energy stealing was a bad update.
But this update? It's great. Can't see a single really bad change, just a few meh ones.